There is a recent article in the WSJ talking about the possible breakup of Spain. I am surprised by how much information about what is going on here can be read in the international media. I have read the article and it summarises what happens here more or less quite well:
Potser sóc una minoria a Catalunya i al conjunt de l’estat però per mi tot no s’hi val. Jo puc comprendre que alguns desitgin molt una cosa i que pensin que els altres estem equivocats però jo crec que unes regles de joc que són independents de si depenem de Madrid, de Barcelona o de la Illa de Pasqua …
JO VAIG VOTAR és quelcom tristíssim perquè fa veure que els que critiquen tant a Espanya per ser poc democràtica i no voler deixar que decidim nosaltres mateixos no tenen cap problema en fer servir la diada de l’11 de setembre. La diada de l’11 de setembre representa la part independentista de Catalunya i per això estava plena d’estelades. I jo no tinc res en contra d’aquesta gent. De fet tinc moltes ganes que aviat tots tinguem la possibilitat de fer un referèndum o consulta i dir el que volem.
Però CiU està jugant brut. Hores abans de la manifestació de l’11 de setembre el president Artur Mas va dir que ell no podia nar a la manifestació perquè era el president de totes i totes catalanes. Però que el seu anhel estava amb la gent. Se suposa que amb la gent de la manifestació. Això ho dic perquè quan el teu president diu coses així no és pas tna estrany que una manifestació s’ompli.
Em sento com si Catalunya fos menus democràtica per culpa de CiU i algun que altre partit. No parlaré pas ara de TV3 ja que no en vull indignar més.
M’he assabentat fa poc que el PP s’apropiat del COBI i li ha posat un vestit del PP i una bandera espnayola i catalana. També veig que per promocionar l’espanyolitat de catalunya fa servir que a Catalunya hi ha molts GARCÍA y JOSÉ.
És possible que al PP siguin tan ignorants que no sàpiguen que a la majoria de països que es van alliberar de la possessiva Espanya i que ara són independents també hi ha molts JOSÉ i GARCÍA. No serà pas que el PP encara no ha acceptat que hi hagi països on es parli castellà i hagi cognoms i noms castellans i no estiguin sota el control de Madrid?
Encara que tothom a Catalunya ens diguessim JOSÉ i GARCÍA i fins i tot encara que fins i tot ningú parlés en català sinó que tothom parlés castellà també tenim raons per no voler dependre de Madrid! També els austríacs i els alemanys deuen compartir molts noms i cognoms i no per això Austria i Alemanya han de ser un mateix estat. El que ens uneixin coses a la gent de Catalunya amb gent d’Espanya no vol dir que hàgim de dependre de Madrid!
A veure si se n’adonen a Madrid i al PP que el problema que hi ha és que a Catalunya estem farts de ser maltractats des de Madrid! Què estem farts de que ens insultin dient que ens deixen diners quan nosaltres ens hem quedat sense res entre altres coses per ser tan solidaris durant dècades! ¡VIVA LA LIBERTAD! ¡VIVA LA INGLATERRA QUE RESPETA A SUS VECINOS DEL NORTE! !VIVAN TODOS LOS PAISES DE SUDAMÉRICA Y CENTROAMÉRICA CON LOS QUE COMPARTO LENGUA Y EL DESEO DE UN DÍA DE TAMPOCO DEPENDER DE MADRID. POR MUCHO QUE ME GUSTA ESTA CIUDAD. COMO ME GUSTA LONDRES.
This post is thought for those who want an answer to some of its questions and use Internet for that case. Needless to say that here you will find an answer but needless to say too that the answer may not be the one you would desire.
So should the US support Catalonia independence?
Well, at first, right now, it is obvious that the US just should remain silent. As any other country the US should wait and see …
But let’s imagine that the day comes when the world needs to know what the US has to say. Well, in this case, I imagine that the US just have to see what the EU says.
Once that said is it important to the US an independent Catalonia? Can that be good for the US? Some benefit of it?
It is obvious that if the US supports Catalonia indepence that can bring more little independence states into the European Union. Is htis good for the US? I imagine that this depends in the way this affects the EU.
Wrting this I am realizing how something that can be very important for us in Catalonia it cannot be at all important outside Catalonia or Spain.
As far as I know new states have been born in two ways: after a violent conflict or after an agreement. In the case of Spain and Catalonia it is not possible for me to imagine a violent conflict to take place as we are inside the European Union. Any violent conflict it would mean we go out of the EU at once, I imagine. And an agreement, we have not agreement right yet …
The famous marathon of New York takes place this time the first days of November. I have read that in the city where now Josep Guardiola is living they intend that the independence flag of Catalonia is seen everywhere.
Some days ago I remember one American saying that the Catalan people, if they want to get support for their new state, they should not worry so much why do they want independence and they should ask themselves why should the rest of the world want Catalonia independence?
As Barcelona is quite known in New York and Woody Allen even brought here Scarlett Johansson for a film with Penélope and Bardem I wonder why should New Yorkers would want Catalonia to be independent.
One of the few reasons I could imagine would be if the new state had English as another official language but unfortunately most of my countrymen are not so fond of learning English as I do.
Who knows, maybe is the international community that could suggest that of the English language. I think it would be perfect. Barcelona is quite a nice city and if English was also its official language it would mean that a lot of people from around the world could come to live in Barcelona.
In any case, I just would be happy if New Yorkers just supported us to decide our future. One day the Americans had to fight against the British to get its independence. Now the UK even let’s the Scots to decide its own future. Something like that I want for Barcelona and Catalonia.
- Spain votes to stop Catalonia independence referendum… (ca.news.yahoo.com)
The other day an American professor or soemthing was asked how coud Catalonia get independnece? He said that one of the ways to have an independent Catalonia is that the world wants it! Until now it seems that only people in Catalonia want that and not everybody.
So I have thought what could give an independent Catalonia to the world that could make an independent Catalonia to be very welcomed by the planet?
And this is my proposal. Catalonia, if it gets independent it will be a fruit of the European Union. Without the existence of the European Union it is difficult that we would be talking about an independent Catalonia.
So if a possible independent Catalonia is a fruit of the European Union then an independent catalonia must wear a European Union stamps that shines around the planet. And what has being making the European Union all this years: TO BRING STEP BY STEP, LITTLE BY LITTLE, THE FRONTIERS DOWN!
SO AN INDEPENDENT CATALONIA SHOULD BE THE FIRST STATE OF THE WORLD WITHOUT HAVING BORDERS!
Some centuries ago, cities used to have walls around them. Now they do not have them!
So now it is the same! CATALONIA SHOULD NOT HAVE BORDERS!
For Catalonia it should not be difficult to do so! All around it the same language is even spoken!
It may seem crazy not to put borders but are there borders between towns? Well, there are of course, but we do not seen them. The same could happen in a new Catalonia.
No borders with our neighbours! If a future Spain and France would want to put borders it would be their problem.
So,if we do not put borders, what are we doing with the new state. Well, we just collect taxes in Barcelona and we send our part to Brussels. Without having to send money to Madrid (at least directly!)
Yesterday I was promenading through a passeig (a street where you walk in the middle and you have two rows of trees) here in Catalonia when I realise that whatever my feelings about the independence or not of Catalonia I was LIVING IN CATALONIA.
I realized that whatever I was a big enthusiast of a Catalan independence or I was s strong suppporter of Catalonia remaining in Spain or even if I did not care much the status of Catalonia, well, I realized that in whatever circumstance I was living in a very special moment of history for both Catalonia and Spain.
If Catalonia was going to be independent that would mean I was born with Spanish nationality and I was going to change to another nationality. Quite a change that does not happen to everybody! A lot of people live all their live with the same nationality.
So, as I was promenading through the streets here in Catalonia I realized that even if I did not care about what was going on or I cared much something serious was going around.
And I can assure that this brought me a lot of energy because whatever it happened at the end it was obvious that there was going to be a change. In some way I saw all this as Catalonia being born again or as its last defeat. I saw that Catalonia was going to fly so high that it could end quite far awy or it could fall down too. And the fall could be quite hard.
Then as I was walking through the streets here in Catalonia I felt quite proud to be just at this moment in Catalonia. Because it was one of the few times I felt part of history (it happened to me the same the first time I got euros from the ATM) I look around and saw other people and then I realized that a lot of eyes were going to watch us! Spain may be putting us in a bad situation but it was sure that on November 25th a lot of people in Spain will be watching the Catalan results to see how much more independene vote had even increased since September 11th.
But I am not talking just about people in Catalonia dreaming about an independent state. I am talking about other people too. I am thinking about the people in Catalonia that want to remain in Spain. For them I imagine that this moment it must be very important. I am sure they have been thinking the best way according to them to stay in Spain.
So, it is not so much about feeling part of the ones who want indepence or not. It is the sense that we are in a historical moment. Now in Catalonia, I doubt there not a lot of people that are proud to contribute to a new state … or to remain inside Spain.
Let me take, for example, Alicia She is the one behind the Catalan PP. She is the one wanting Catalonia to remain in Spain in any case. For this woman now it must be a very important time for her. Not a boring time! In Catalonia I imagine a lot of people see in her in her Spanish side. But I imagine that outside Catalonia, people from her party, see in her her Catalan side. When Aznar wants a recentralization of Spain and she says publicly that she does not want to I feel that at last we all Catalan are united by defending whatever we can according to our ideas.
Some years ago I remember to have been outside Catalonia with a friend from Catalonia. When we are in Catalonia I seem to be the more Catalan nationalistic and he seems to be quite happy with Spain. Well, when we are in Catalonia we speak Castilian between us. Well, when we were outside Catalonia he asked me that we both spoke Catalan! That made me think that maybe he and I were in fact saying something and feeling otherwise. It never occurred to me to speak Catalan outisde Catalonia with him. But he wanted to show to the people outside Catalonia we were from Catalonia. I did not feel that need. So, who was more nationalistic him or me?
Another thing that I realized it is that this situation in Catalonia coul dunite people because whatever we thought it was obvious that our future was at stake.
We all know from history books what has happened in Catalonia in the last century. We know that Catalonia has alsways wanted more and more power. Anyone living in Catalonia knows that. So now, whatever one wants to remain in Spain or not, we all knew were in a part of Spain that is known all around Spain because some people here want to become independent. What has changed now is that this part now has found a voice in a main party.
Maybe I am not the great supporter of independence other are and in fact I do not know what I would vote in a referendum or consultation but I, as most people in Catalonia, want Catalonia to have its say. And in this sense I feel very proud of people around me! There is not sacred reason whatsoever, I repeat whatsoever, why we should be ruled from the city of Real Madrid and not from the city of FC Barcelona. Is it written on the stars the Barcelona and its surroundings should be ruled for eternity from a city, that even not existed, some centuries ago? The old Imperial Tarraco, the old Barcino should be ruled from a city that was just created some centuries ago? If other people around the peninsula think they should be ruled from a place called Madrid is their problem. I just want to be ruled from Barcelona. And not because I do not feel Spanish or whatever or because I just feel Catalan or whatever. It has nothing to do with that. It is simply because there is something much more important to me that anything: FREEDOM. Let Spain give me the choice to be FREE and vote about me wanting to depend from Barcelona or Madrid and I may have a doubt. But not letting me even express myself it is obvious I would prefer before to depend from Barcelona. Not because I do not like Madrid but because as Brussels will become each day more important I find upsetting to depend from so many places. Madrid, Barcelona, Brussels and Berlin is too much. With Brussels and Barcelona I think it would be much better.
Sentint als Senyor de les Azores, el senyor Aznar, un té la sensació que aquí a Catalunya per culpa del procés sobiranista Catalunya es trencarà en dos. Em fa gràcia quan diu això ja que m’imagino llavors els meus veïns que tenen estelades als balcons com si fossin uns dimonis terribles. I també em fa imaginar que dins de les cases on no n’hi ha estelades estan plenes de famílies que no paren de plorar i on tots els membres ja s’han comprat un bitllet de tren per tornar-se’n demà mateix cap a Granada i així anar a casa de l’oncle que es va quedar a Granada i que els protegirà dels veïns endimoniats que tenen i que posen estelades als balcons. Vaja que amb la imatge d’Aznar m’imagino que Catalunya està plena de gent histerica o endimoniada. Tot el contrari de la gent que conec per cert.
Per una altra banda. ERC ens presenta un video on gent que parla castellà i té arrels fora de Catalunya doncs està encantada amb la independència. La veritat és que em xoca el video un xic però és evident que amb el maltractament que rebem de Madrid que fins i tot fan veure que ens fan un favor quan ens tornen una ínfima part del que ens han pres doncs bé no m’estranya que l’independentisme s’expandeixi per tot arreu.
De totes maneres suposo que els que ara li donen tanta importància al vot que parla en castellà són conscients que si ara demanen el vot fent servir raonaments econòmics llavors un cop Catalunya pugui ser independent gràcies també a aquest vot que és en castellà llavors caldrà tractar a tothom per igual. I a més de TV3 haurem de tenir una televisió pública en castellà. O hauran de veure aquesta gent que parla castellà la televisió via satél.lit que es fa en Madrid? Si la Catalunya independent només es pot fer sumant una majoria feta entre tots deixant de banda en quina llengua parlem com vull entendre veient aquest video llavors la Catalunya independent i amb dues llengües oficials ha de ser conseqüent. I sinó simplement facin com Solidaritat Catalana. SI no enganya. Pot agradar o no però no es pot dir que enganya. Fins i tot m’he quedat amb la intriga de saber com parla el castellà en López Tena després de dir que a quí a catalunya el parlem d’aquella manera …
Dic tot això perquè cal anar pensant en una Catalunya independent no només en com aconseguir-la. I en una Catalunya independent caldrà també una televisió pública en castellà. I si no sembla bé. doncs llavors siguem clars i fem com Solidaritat Catalana que només vol el català com a llengua oficial. A mi personalment el que el castellà sigui llengua oficial o no no m’afecta gaire però el que voldria de cap manera és que hi hagi gent que s’imagina una Catalunya esplendorosa independent i després un cop tinguem una Catalunya independnet es trobin que no tenen ni televisió pública per veure en una de les futures llengües de Catalunya.
Dit to això us deixo amb el video d’ERC. Per cert, millor un partit que intenta integrar que no pas el contrari. L´únic que dic és que se sigui conseqüent fins al final! Si ERC està disposada a voler guanyar vot de gent que parla en castellà que després tingui en compte els seus anhels! Ens hauríem d’ajustar tots als temps que poden venir! Si la part castellanoparlant de Catalunya se sent que a Catalunya pot viure com a casa tinc la sensació que la independència podria arribar ben aviat. I sinó, sempre ens quedarà voler la Catalunya que voldria SI amb només el català i potser esperar-nos tota l’eternitat …
Jo amb una Catalunya que se semblés a la d’ara on més o menys no hi ha problemes de convivència per raons d’origen o de llengua però amb la diferència de dependre només de Barcelona, Brussel·les i Berlin en comptes de Barcelona, Madrid, Brussel·les i Berlin ja em conformaria! Potser això per alguns no els agradarà ja que voldrien fer de Catalnya un simple estat més d’Europa. A mi el que m’agrada justament de Catalunya és justament que som diferents.
Some people in Catalonia want independence and some other not. Unfortunately for both we are not getting a clear message from Brussels about what happens when there is secession inide a state member.
Until now the EU has been a source of stability around the continent but now it can create a difficult situation if it reamains ambiguous!
Can Scotland or Catalonia remian inside the EU if they break from the UK and Spain?
Europe should not only answer that question as son as possible. IT ALSO MUST PROVIDE WARRANTIES TO BOTH PARTS OF A BREAKING UP that Europe will do its best to make that the breaking does not mean a worse situation for the citizens.
For example, in the case of Catalonia and Spain Europe cannot say this is an internal affair. If we in Catalonia, at least some, think about a possible independent state is because we have Europe. Without the European Union establishment, its democratic and peaceful background and the existence of a common currency the idea of an independent Catalonia won’t be so successful in Catalonia!
So, Europe, I mean the European Union, should find a consensus so that Europe has a future. It does not make sense that Scotland maybe become independent and be inside the UE and we in Catalonia we are not allowed evne to decide our future and we are even threatened to be put out of Europe from some wonderful amigos we have in this part of Europe. We are European citizens! All this is happening because of the EU structure. So there must be a European answer!
If in Europe each day we are going to be ruled more from Brussels it is not strange that people in Barcelona and catalonia may think that it is crazy to be ruled from Madrid and then from Brusssels. Too much! Why not directly then from Brussels?
I am not only thinking about the lands who want to create new states. I am thinking too about the states that may break up. If Catalonia leaves Spain then Spain won’t get money from Catalonia in the current way? Is Germany the one to give to Spain the money that Catalonia won’t give?
This must be answered now and without fear! All this conflict between Catalonia and Spain is also related a lot about Catalonia having to ask now for money to Madrid (the Spanish government is giving us the money as if they were making us a favour!) when Catalonia would have much more money if we had not been during decades being given so much solidarity money to the rest of Spain. It is crazy that now we have to ask money to Madrid when madrid has during decades taken our money! This is ridiculous! It is almost as if Germany went bankrupt because it has bailout Spain and now Germany has to beg Spain to give them money to make ends meet! Why do you think that so many people want independence in Catalonia? One thing is to have solidarity with Spain and another quite different is that you have to beg Spain to lend you money because you have nothing because during decades you have been so solidarious with Spain! I feel very angry with this! Some people in Catalonia have the feeling as if a roberry had happened and now the one who has robbed as gives us a little coin and even asks us to say thank you!
All this could be solved within Europe! Europe could establish the solidarity between different lands!
Who knows maybe Catalonia becomes independent and then it happens that the EU then aks Catalonia to have a lot of solidarity to Spain and then we are back to square one!
It is thanks to the fact that we are in the European Union that we expect that even if we have another state in this part of Europe we will share a same currency and the borders will be open as it is now. But what could happen if the European Union collapsed? Will this mean war again in Europe?
In brief Europe must realise that its own existence makes that some lands in Europe want to become new states. Europe should try, in my opinion, not to encourage Europe divided in a thousand little states or just the opposite, a Europe too tighten and to rigid inside the current states. I am not talking avoid welcoming a lot of new states or rejecting them. This is too sensitive. I am just talking about creating a framework in Europe that:
1. Ensures that some Europeans are not bad treated by other Europeans to the extent that wealthy parts have to act almost as beggars (the case of Catalonia with respect to Spain!)
2. Ensures that if a state breaks in two Europe will do its best not to avoid that or promote that but to get sure that both citizens of both states remain in the European Union, respect each other and have solidarity between them too!
Europe should ensure that whatever it happens in Spain (to remain all ruled from Barcelona, Madrid and Brussels or let Catalonians be ruled just from Barcelona and Brussles) well Europe should ensure that Spain and Catalonia abide to the rules of Europe.
So for example Europe could tell Spain that it should listen to its people, even if they happen to be Catalan people. And it could tell Catalan people that Catalonia as an independent state will have to abide to the solidarity that Brussels says!
If Europe stays silent what we have it just some people from Spain (Almunia, fortunately, is different) that threaten Catalan people to have to leave the EU if we vote for independent (they do not allow us to vote for that but they tell us what will happen if we did!) And we have people in Catalonia that promote independence because it seems we will be so rich as we will have much more of our money for us! Europe should put order in this! I do not think it is right to threaten European citiziens of the EU to be put out of the EU just because they do not want to be ruled from Madrid! This is ridiculuous! Europe should say something!
On the other hand if Europe said something then maybe some could not idealize an independent Catalonia where we have a lot og money while Spain who knows how would do! Europe should not allow lacks of solidarity. I say that because if Catalonia leaves Spain, Spain will get poorer and Spain is people Europe should care that apart of Europe does not go belew a minimum level.
If Spain get poorer with a rich independent Catalonia and Europe allowed then why do we have Europe?
Now in catalonia I do not read this but I think that if Catalonia was quite rich and Spain poorer and Europe allowed that then people fromSpain will have to go to work in Catalonia. So Catalonia would be an independent state but it will be full of people from another state searching for work. I wonder this is what people in Catalonia want, really want.
Europe, please put order right now! Today is Scotland. Tomorrow can be Catalonia and the day after tomorrow can be Venice. Europe should take care that if this happens Europe is strengthened and not the opposite. And it must care that all goes smooth! We do not know how many years the European Union will survive. If thanks to the EU framework Europe divides itself in a lot of little states this could be problem without the European Union.
In Spain in Catalonia we are now at odds but we are still in peace. Let us help to remain so! Help us before it is too late! TRY TO BRING AN AGREEMENT BETWEEN POLITICIANS IN MADRID AND IN BARCELONA. Currently what we have is just some telling us they won’t allow us to have a referendum and people in Catalonia saying we will do in any case! CANNOT SEE EUROPE THAT NOW WE NEED EUROPE?? The Spanish nationalistic party PP and the nationalistic Catalan party CiU are not able now to agree in such a basic thing as WHAT DEMOCRACY MEANS!!!!! This is serious. Please help Spain! Please help Catalonia! Do not allow that each day the situation deteriorates more and more. If Spain breaks up in a bad way without a minimum consensus bewteen Madrid and Barcelona this could isolate Spain again from the rest of Europe!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Some people in Madrid want us in Catalonia wnat to have fear that we will have to leave the EU but I am afraid that we end being both expelled from the EU!!!!! I wonder how Europe is lending us money seeing how unable are we of finding solutions for the disputes between Madrid and Barcelona. Real madrid and FC Barcelona are some of the best or the best football teams of the word or so that say! But the rules of football come from England! So maybe now is the same. We have to learn from England again I think. But if in madrid do not like to learn from David Cameron at least Brussels should bring some rules to this dispute between Madrid and Barcelona!
- Brian Wilson: SNP can’t make rules for Europe (scotsman.com)
- Uncertain world: Will the EU expand via secession? (indrus.in)
- Catalan MEPs ask for EU help against Spanish army (euobserver.com)
- Secession Fever Sweeping Europe Meaningless Without Debt Repudiation (thedailybell.com)
- Guest Post: Secession Fever Sweeping Europe Meaningless Without Debt Repudiation (zerohedge.com)